Talk:Joseph and Imhotep
The Famine Stele
During the reign of Pharaoh Djoser, a famine struck the land that lasted seven years. Imhotep is credited for stopping the famine with applied technology. Imhotep is also credited for having mastered a wide range of technologies, medicine and architecture, so one may wonder why the authorities took so long to ask his assistance, or it may have taken this long to derive a solution. This event is recorded on the Famine Stele.
This reference to the "seven years" on the Stele seems to be an anchor-point for those who would link Joseph to Imhotep (as the same person). A more reasonable explanation is that the land of Egypt was on-record (during Djoser's reigh) as having suffered a seven-year famine, which was devastating in the ancient world. The Mayan culture was completely swept away by a famine that did not last this long.
If Egyptians were in control during Joseph's time, they could merely have looked back on the solution offered by Imhotep and tell Joseph, "no need to worry, we've seen this before", and take steps to fix it. But if the Pharoah at the time were a Hyksos king with no prior knowledge or context of such a long famine or how to solve it, this would have struck fear into the heart of Pharoah. Even if he had known of the prior seven-year famine, he would also know that (a) such a famine was possible but (b) lack the knowledge or skill to forestall it.
Moreover, Joseph interprets the dream as seven-years-of-plenty followed by seven-years-of-famine. The Egyptians took no steps whatsover to stop the famine in it tracks (as did Imhotep) but rather gathered grain and later let the famine run its course. As expected, it abated after seven years on its own, without any technological intervention.
The Famine Stele is proof that Netjeriket and Djoser were the same person. --Drnhawkins 04:32, 19 January 2015 (EST) The Famine Stele also shows that Djoser owned the land and had the right to give land to the priests. --Drnhawkins 04:32, 19 January 2015 (EST) The Famine Stele also gives an account of a seven year famine in which Imhotep is credited with saving Egypt by interpreting the Pharaoh's dream. --Drnhawkins 04:32, 19 January 2015 (EST) Along with the discovery of many gain silos in the Djoser complex, the Famine Stele is powerful proof that Joseph and Imhotep were the same person.--Drnhawkins 04:33, 19 January 2015 (EST)
Jospeh was a Hebrew
While Joseph's family was from Canaan, Joseph was not a Canaanite. He was a descendant of Abraham who was a descendent of Eber. In other word, he was a Hebrew and spoke Hebrew. The Canaanites were descendants of Ham. The Hebrews were descendants of Shem.
I can find no evidence for the Hyksos being of Canaanite origin. Please produce some evidence to back up your assertions. The Hyksos appear to have come from Arabia - see article on Hyksos.
Please use this page for discussion and keep the main page factual
The main page should read like an encyclopedia and should not contain argument.
Please keep it factual.
Please give evidence and quote sources.
The origin of the Hyksos is controversial. Some scholars claim they originated in the East (Arabia). Please quote your source if you wish to discuss this. Maybe this is best done on the Hyksos page rather than the page on Joseph and Imhotep.
Joseph was not a Caananite. He was a descendent of Shem and Eber and hence he was a Hebrew.
That the Hyksos were Caananites is highly disputable. Caananites were descendants of Ham.
This is an article that looks at the evidence for Joseph being Imhotep (albeit through creationist eyes) and it's implications
If you are not a creationist and you do not believe the Bible to be true, please do not edit this post. There are plenty of other places to express your views where people will not want to revert your edits.--Drnhawkins 06:05, 19 April 2014 (EDT)
This article is about EVIDENCE. --Drnhawkins 06:05, 19 April 2014 (EDT)
PLEASE NO NOT MAKE STATEMENTS THAT ARE NOT SUPPORTED BY SOME EVIDENCE.
ACCEPTABLE EVIDENCE MAY INCLUDE ANCIENT DOCUMENTS SUCH AS THE BIBLE IF THEY ARE FACTUAL HISTORICAL ACCOUNTS.
PHOTOS MAY BE USED AS EVIDENCE.
AS DATES AND TIME ARE CRITICAL PLEASE DO NOT ASSUME ANYTHING WHEN BUILDING AN ARGEMENT BASED UPON DATES.
PLEASE STATE THE SOURCE OF ALL DATES THAT ARE QUOTED
Please make use of discussion pages before making statements that contradict other contributors
Rather than delete the work of others, perhaps make a discussion about it. If it is clearly wrong, move it to a discussion page and explain why giving the evidence.--Drnhawkins 06:05, 19 April 2014 (EDT)
Main space is not the place to say what you don't believe
Negative comments should be in the discussion section, not main space.
Main space should read like an encyclopedia.
What you do believe should be supported by evidence eg articles, historical documents and photos etc
It is not the position of this website that the Bible should be doubted in any form, but that those who attempt to revise history should be given no quarter and lack no challenge to their assertions. The following discussion therefore is to provide additional information as to the arguments for and against the possibility that Joseph and Imhotep are the same person, so as to inform and equip the saints to defend the Scripture against gainsayers who would revise history in an effort to show the Bible is true or false.
Please allow for the fact that even Bible based creationists may interpret some evidence differently
An example of this could include the length of time that the Jews were in Egypt (long vs short sojourn)
Please do not delete other people's work without making a note on the relevant discussion page and giving the reason with some supportive evidence.
For example if you state that Moses lead the Israelites out of Egypt in the18th dynasty please give sufficient evidence that supports the strength of your assertion.
Validate your work by showing how it fits into the "Big Picture" or a "timeline"
Showing how your assertions fit with other historical character matches or contemporaries is a powerful way or validating your argument.
'Modern' Chronology (Ashton & Down 2006) [18]
| Date | Egypt | Contemporary in Israel |
|---|---|---|
| 2080BC | Menes (First Dynasty) | Abraham |
| 1900BC | Djoser (Third Dynasty) + Imhotep | Joseph |
| 1531BC | Amenemhet III (6th Pharaoh 12th Dynasty) | Moses |
| 1445BC | Neferhotep I (13th Dynasty) | The Exodus (Moses) |
| 1405 -1021BC | Hyksos (15th & 16th Dynasty) | Joshua to Saul |
| 1018BC | Amenhotep I & Thutmosis I (18th Dynasty) | King David |
| 950BC | Hatshepsut (18th Dynasty) [Queen of Sheba] | Solomon |
| 929BC | Thutmosis III (18th Dynasty) | Jereboam |
I'm confused by this chart. The identities are consistent with Ashton and Down except for Joseph who he identifies as Mentuhotep under the reign of Sesostris I (12th Dynasty). Can you clarify.
Ashton, John F., and Down, David. Unwrapping the Pharaohs: How Egyptian Archaeology Confirms the Biblical Timeline p. 82-83, Green Forest, AR: Master Books, 2006.
--Ashcraft - (talk) 10:57, 31 July 2011 (PDT)
Joseph being Imhotep and hence a contemporary of Djoser is in keeping with Down's chronology if the Long Sojourn is true.--Drnhawkins 04:54, 21 April 2014 (EDT)
There are two schools of thought regarding the length of Israel's sojourn in Egypt.
If the Jews had a 430 yrs sojourn, then this would mean that the date of Joseph would be around 1875bc which puts him roughly around the time that Down has given for Djoser in the third dynasty. There is a very strong match between the Character profile of Joseph and Imhotep as explained in the article. In order to accept that Imhotep was Jospeh, Scholars would have to accept a long sojourn and a revised Chronology as given by Down.
--Drnhawkins 02:54, 13 November 2011 (PST)
- Here is my problem with the long sojourn: how do you reconcile that with Galatians 3:17, which says that 430 years passed after the Abrahamic Covenant, not necessarily after Jacob brought his family to Egypt? And: if the Israelites spent 430 years in Egypt, how does that square with the Bible's genealogy of Moses?--TemlakosTalk 06:37, 7 January 2013 (PST)
This is very difficult to resolve. Reading the Old Testament at face value, it seems like the Israelites were in Egypt for 430 years to the very day. Reading the New Testament it seems like the 430 years began when the promise was given to Abraham. The only explanation I can offer is that maybe the 430 years began when the promise given to Abraham started to be fulfilled (when the Israelites entered Egypt), but this was lost in translation.--Drnhawkins 04:16, 21 April 2014 (EDT)
The Bible does say 400 years or 4 generations and the ages of Levi, Kohath, Amram, and Moses do add up to more than 400 years. --Drnhawkins 04:26, 21 April 2014 (EDT)
We need policy regarding the deletion of other people's work
Many of the pages that I have started have been edited and modified particularly by a user called Joshlight. Not only has he deleted many of my contributions, he has changed artical to say the complete opposite of what I had originally stated. I suppose that this is within the constitution of a community encyclopedia of this sort as long as he is genuinely a creationist. For now, I will cease to edit articles on creation wiki. Many thanks, --Drnhawkins 03:16, 16 April 2014 (EDT)Nigel Hawkins
Before deleting other people's work, some comments should be made on the discussion page. If a significant part of an article is deleted it should be moved to the discussion page and the reason for the deletion given.--Drnhawkins 04:12, 21 April 2014 (EDT)
Discussions should be left to the discussion page. Why something cannot be true should be on a discussion page.--Drnhawkins 04:12, 21 April 2014 (EDT)
Main space should be about what you do believe and based on evidence.--Drnhawkins 04:12, 21 April 2014 (EDT)
Merge
This article should be merged with Pharaoh Djoser (Netjerikhet) was the Pharaoh of Joseph as they cover the same basic content. --Ashcraft - (talk) 12:46, 6 March 2013 (PST)
I would be happy for this if there was universal agreement. If there is not widespread agreement among creationists, it will be hijacked or cannibalized very quickly--Drnhawkins 04:36, 21 April 2014 (EDT)
For now, it would be better to leave it separate and use main space as the case for merging and the discussion page as the case against.--Drnhawkins 04:36, 21 April 2014 (EDT)
