Talk:Flood legends

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Greek Accounts

Greek Mythology was pretty garbled, it wound up having 2 or 3 Flood legends, not counting Plato's Atlantis (In Laws Plato's date for the Ogygian Flood is about the same as his date for Atlantis).--MithirandirOlorin 14:27, 26 May 2011 (PDT)

I've seen conflicting information on which came first, but generally the Ogygian ends the Silver Age and Deucalion the Bronze Age. (I feel CreationWiki is mistaken when saying it occurred during or before the Golden Age). But I do feel the description of the Golden Age most matches the Antediluvian age, though from a Pagan POV.--MithirandirOlorin 14:27, 26 May 2011 (PDT)

Deucalion's is argued to parallel the Bible's the most, he's the only Genealogically linked to Japheth/Iapetus, Javan/Ion and Elisha/Helen though how is garbled.--MithirandirOlorin 14:27, 26 May 2011 (PDT)

The Ogygian Flood is variously dated to 2137 B.C. by Varro, 2376 B.C. by Censorinus, 2050 B.C. by Augustine, sometimes in the 1700s by Africanus and others, and 1628 B.C. according to Jerome (Sounds pretty close to modern estimate for the Thera eruption, the 2 disasters could have become confused in some sources, but that date for Thera is probably based on Uniformitarian dating methods we Creationists shouldn't support).--MithirandirOlorin 14:27, 26 May 2011 (PDT)





  • - See:
  • - The "ages of man," by the Greek poet Hesiod's Works and Days (circa 700 B.C.E.).
  • - Golden: (Antediluvian Eden-like conditions) "these humans were said to live among the gods, and freely mingled with them. Peace and harmony prevailed during this age. Humans did not have to work to feed themselves, for the earth provided food in abundance." - Wikipedia.
  • - Silver (Antediluvian conditions - post Eden) "During this Age men refused to worship the gods " - Wikipedia.
  • - Bronze: (Antediluvian conditions - post Eden) "their arms and tools forged of bronze," "The men of this Age were undone by their own violent ways and left no named spirits; instead, they dwell in the "dank house of Hades". This Age came to an end with the flood of Deucalion."
  • - Heroic: "These humans were created from the bones of the earth (stones) through the actions of Deucalion and Pyrrha."
  • - Iron: "Hesiod finds himself in the Iron Age."
  • - See:
  • - (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_Man)



Hopefully this helps a bit.

--Anaccuratesource (talk) 23:02, 27 August 2015 (EDT)

Maya

Don't Mayans believe a Global Flood ended ended the Previous world? before this one began in 3114 B.C. on their calendar?--MithirandirOlorin 14:28, 26 May 2011 (PDT)





Fuhi Reference could be updated

Talk origins (A critic and evolutions) states: This flood story apparently comes from the United States, not China. We have traced it back to Nelson's The Deluge Story in Stone (1931, 181-182). Nelson says that, according to the Hihking, Fuhi "escaped the waters of a deluge, and reappeared as the first man at the reproduction of a renovated world, accompanied by his wife, his three sons and three daughters." There is no mention of a boat. The temple illustration is a separate account which Nelson attributes to Gutzlaff, presumably Karl Gützlaff, a Lutheran missionary in China around 1825. Gutzlaff reports it as a picture of Noah, not Fuhi. There are no further references to allow either account to be checked.

Nelson's "Hihking" most likely refers to the Shan hai ching, or Classic of Mountains and Seas. However, the flood myth described therein is very different from Nelson's account. The Shan hai ching story says that when a great flood came, Kun ("Hugefish") stole breathing-soil (the matter of creation) from the great god to dam the waters, but he did not wait for the great god to command him to use it, so the great god ordered Kun killed. Kun was later restored to life and gave birth to Yu who, at the great god's command, completed Kun's work of damming the flood waters (Birrell 1999, 195-196; Walls and Walls 1984, 94-100). The differences between the two accounts are so profound that we can only speculate how Nelson came by his version. Presumably, he relied on a second- or third-hand version which was conflated with the biblical flood in memories and retellings. Perhaps Fuhi (Fu Hsi, Fu Xi, or other transliterations) became substituted for Yu because both are considered founders of aspects of civilization.

It is possible that the Hihking refers to another work, but we can find no other that is more plausible. The I Ching is a possibility as Fu Hsi is credited with its authorship, but it contains no flood account at all."

Is this true?




--Anaccuratesource (talk) 22:54, 27 August 2015 (EDT)

Legends from Across the Globe

  • - There are thousands of flood legends exist all over the globe.


  • - All over the world people speak of an event with striking similarities to the Bible's accurate record of the Great flood - a real event in our human history. We are still learning more about certain cultures and their mythology and belief systems. Some cultures we know little to nothing about. Still we quite a number of records of many flood legends to begin with.


  • - Critics may challenge that flood legends can offer corroborative evidence to the Bible's account. And some critics have asserted these numerous flood legends don't actually prove the Great flood happened. However, in fact they lend very well to the Bible's factual record of flood as an event that happened. And this is what we would kind of expect to find too. The flood was a huge event in our human history. And it's interesting how a surprisingly large number of these flood legends are actually central to peoples' cultural belief systems (legends and mythologies) and their cultural identity, the belief of their origins. Quite a number of these flood legends indicate that only a few survived this Flood and ended up becoming the ancestors to the present population.



  • - Philip Freud's book: Myths and Creation, describes some 500 stories about great deluge from 250 different tribes.
  • – (Genesis 11:9)


  • - Funfact:
  • - "Chinese, Egyptian, Greek, Semitic, and Siberian legends depict the raven as a foreteller of storms or bad weather. Perhaps such legends had Noah and the Flood as their origin. The raven signifies life and creation in the legends of Siberia and is the creator-god of the Aboriginals in North America. In legends of Africa, Asia, and Europe, the raven portends death."
  • – the January 8th, 1997 Awake! Magazine, page 24.


  • - Legends from around the world
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  • - Africa:





  • - Chad:
  • - See:
  • - Moussaye tribe:
  • - "Once upon a time, in a faraway place, there lived a family. One day, the mother of this family wanted to prepare a sumptuous meal for her loved ones. So she took her mortar and pestle to pound the grain into flour. At that time the sky was much closer than it is now. In fact, if you reached up with your hand, you could touch it. She pounded the grain with all her strength, and the millet she pounded quickly turned to flour. But as she pounded, the woman carelessly lifted the pestle too high, and she poked a hole in the sky! Immediately, a great quantity of water started falling to the earth. This was no ordinary rain. It rained for seven days and seven nights until the whole earth was covered with water. As the rain fell, the sky began to rise until it ended up where it is now—unreachably high. What a catastrophe for humanity! Since then, we have lost the privilege of touching the sky with our hands." – (The Watchtower, September 15, 1996 page. 25)













  • - Americas:


  • - North America:



  • - How do we know this an ancient story?



  • - Frederick Waugh was an ethnologist who researched Anishinaabe (Ojibwa) customs in 1916. He mentions the legendary character “Nanabojo” in some of his notebooks. And Frances Densmore's "Chippewa Customs" in 1925 wrote about Nanbozho as well.
  • - The telling of legend of Nanabozho speaks of prophet messenger sent by the Gichi Manitu (Meaning God. Literally, the "Great Spirit") named Nanabozho (meaning: white rabbit), shape-shifting trickster spirits, wicked "serpent" people (the antagonists in the story), all during a period of quarreling and violence, Nanabozho was a divine messenger (like a prophet and preacher) who warned the people, people who scoffed Nanabozho, the Nanabozho constructs a wooden craft to survive the oncoming flood; Nanabozho puts the animals on it; preserving them in the process, a flooded earth, creatures sent to forge for dry earth.)
  • - See:
  • - (http://archives.cbc.ca/science_technology/unexplained/topics/1462-9703/)
  • - (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Etn92Ms8plo)




  • - Glyphs - (e.g., Pictographs (pictoral drawings using pigment), Petroglyphs (rock carvings) as well as Story-hide and Birch Scrolls mentioned above.
  • - See:
  • - (The glyphs identified as Nanabozho (or Naniboujou, Nanabush) on Mazinaw Rock, at Bon Echo Provincial Park, Ontario. The site of the Mazinaw pictographs was designated as a National Historic Site of Canada in 1982.)
  • - See:
  • - (http://www.ontarioparks.com/park/bonecho)
  • - (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazinaw_Rock)




  • - Comparative analysis with other neighbouring North–American First Nations (e.g., Haudenosaunee "Turtle-Island")





  • - Canada:
  • - The Cree First Nation people:
  • - Wīhsakecāhkw, "responsible for a great flood which destroyed the world originally made by the Creator"
  • - See:
  • - (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wisakedjak)









  • - U.S.A. (North Dakota)
  • - "The Arikara Native American First Nation and People: Nishanu sends, the Great sky chief and creator sent a flood to destroy a race of wicked giants. Sparing a few individuals by planting into the ground as corn." The Watchtower January 15th, 1992 page 6.
  • - See:
  • - (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arikara)




  • - Mesoamerica:







  • - Summary:


  • - 1) (Nahui-Ocelotl: "Jaguar Sun")
  • - 'An era the world was inhabited by Giants who were devoured by jaguars.' – Wikipedia. (Giant destroyed)


  • - 2) (Nahui-Ehécatl: "Wind Sun")
  • - Earth's inhabitants were transformed into monkeys. This world was destroyed by hurricanes – Wikipedia. (World destroyed by hurricanes)


  • - 3) (Nahui-Quiahuitl: "Rain Sun")
  • - Earth's inhabitants were destroyed by rain of fire. Only birds survived (or inhabitants survived by becoming birds). – Wikipedia. (World destroyed by "rain" of fire.)


  • - 4) (Nahui-Atl: "Water Sun")
  • - This world was flooded by Goddess Chalchiuhtlicue. " A couple escaped but were transformed into dogs." – Wikipedia. (World destroyed by a flood)


  • - 5) (Nahui-Ollin: Earthquake Sun)
  • - "We are the inhabitants of this world. This world will be destroyed by earthquakes (or one large earthquake)." – Wikipedia.





  • - Central America:





  • - South America


  • - Brazil/Peru:
  • - Chincha People.
  • - "In Peru the Chincha have a legend of a five-day flood that destroyed all men except one whom a talking llama led to safety on a mountain." – January 15, 1992 Watchtower page 7.
  • - See:
  • - (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chincha_people)
  • - <more to come>






  • - Bolivia/Peru and other places:
  • - Inca (Quechuas)
  • - "one Inca legend claims that the original Incas were flood survivors. The book Sociografia del Inkario states: “All the traditions of the people of the Andean altiplano speak of a flood that had submerged the whole earth.” According to one Inca legend, all living beings perished. However, another version speaks of some individuals "who, by hiding in a hollow up on a very high mountain peak, were saved and repopulated the earth." – The Watchtower January 22, 1992.
  • - "Paricia was a god who sent a flood to kill humans who did not respect him adequately. Possibly another name for Pacha Kamaq" – Wikipedia.
  • - Paria caca (or Paryaqaqa)
  • - "Unu Pachakuti is the name of a flood that Viracocha caused to destroy the people around Lake Titicaca, saving two to bring civilization to the rest of the world." – Wikipedia.
  • - "According to a myth recorded by Juan de Betanzos, Viracocha rose from Lake Titicaca (or sometimes the cave of Paqariq Tampu) during the time of darkness to bring forth light. He made the sun, moon, and the stars. He made mankind by breathing into stones, but his first creation were brainless giants that displeased him. So he destroyed it with a flood and made a new, better one from smaller stones. Viracocha eventually disappeared across the Pacific Ocean (by walking on the water), and never returned. He wandered the earth disguised as a beggar, teaching his new creations the basics of civilization, as well as working numerous miracles. He wept when he saw the plight of the creatures he had created." "It was thought that Viracocha would re-appear in times of trouble. Pedro Sarmiento de Gamboa wrote that Viracocha was described as "a man of medium height, white and dressed in a white robe like an alb secured round the waist, and that he carried a staff and a book in his hands." In one legend he had one son, Inti, and two daughters, Mama Killa and Pachamama. In this legend, he destroyed the people around Lake Titicaca with a Great Flood called Unu Pachakuti, saving two to bring civilization to the rest of the world, these two beings are Manco Cápac, the son of Inti (sometimes taken as the son of Viracocha), which name means "splendid foundation", and Mama Uqllu, which means "mother fertility". These two founded the Inca civilization carrying a golden staff, called 'tapac-yauri'. In another legend, he fathered the first eight civilized human beings. In some stories, he has a wife called Mama Qucha."
  • - "In another legend, Viracocha had two sons, Imahmana Viracocha and Tocapo Viracocha. After the Great Flood and the Creation, Viracocha sent his sons to visit the tribes to the northeast and northwest to determine if they still obeyed his commandments. Viracocha himself traveled North. During their journey, Imaymana and Tocapo gave names to all the trees, flowers, fruits, and herbs. They also taught the tribes which of these were edible, which had medicinal properties, and which were poisonous. Eventually, Viracocha, Tocapo and Imahmana arrived at Cusco (in modern-day Peru) and the Pacific seacoast where they walked across the water until they disappeared. The word "Viracocha" literally means "Sea Foam." – Wikipedia.
  • - Wikipedia referenced Sources:
  • - Alan Kolata's Valley of the Spirits: a Journey into the Lost Realm of the Aymara (1996), pages 65-72
  • - Andrews, Tamra (2000). Dictionary of Nature Myths. Oxford University Press. p. 216. ISBN 0-19-513677-2.
  • - "Viracocha". Bloomsbury Dictionary of Myth. Bloomsbury Publishing Ltd., London. 1996. Retrieved 2009-02-10.
  • - Viracocha and the Coming of the Incas from "History of the Incas" by Pedro Sarmiento De Gamboa, translated by Clements Markham, Cambridge: The Hakluyt Society 1907, pp. 28-58.
  • - "Glossary, Inca Gods". First People of America and Canada - Turtle Island. Retrieved 2009-02-10.









  • - Asia:








  • - China/Vietnam:
  • - " “till the waters reached the sky, and all living beings perished except two, a brother and a sister, who were saved in a huge chest. They took with them into the chest a pair of every sort of animal..." - Frazer, J.G., Folklore in the Old Testaments: Studies in Comparative Religon, Legend and Law (Abridged Edition), Avenel Books, New York, NY, USA, p. 107, 1988.
  • - (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahnar_people)
  • - (http://creation.com/many-flood-legends#endRef6)
  • - <More to come>










  • - Austr-Polyensia:



The current entry in the article states that "This legend is undoubtedly the product of aboriginal legends merging with those of visiting missionaries, and there does not appear to be any native flood stories from Australia." What is the source of this claim? There are no references. Also, in a video by Answers in Genesis, called Noah's Ark: Thinking Outside the Box at about 8:36, Ken Ham says he was struck by the similarity of accounts in Australian Aborigine stories. The books shown are: 1. Aboriginal Myths, Legends, and Fables and 2. Aboriginal Myths: Tales of the Dreamtime, both by A.W. Reed. See https://answersingenesis.org/kids/videos/bible/noahs-ark-thinking-outside-box/. --OppositeDay (talk) 00:35, 1 September 2020 (EDT)OppositeDay 23:33, 31 August 2020 (CST)


  • - Europe:





  • - See:
  • - The "ages of man," by the Greek poet Hesiod's Works and Days (circa 700 B.C.E.).
  • - Golden: (Antediluvian Eden-like conditions) "these humans were said to live among the gods, and freely mingled with them. Peace and harmony prevailed during this age. Humans did not have to work to feed themselves, for the earth provided food in abundance." - Wikipedia.
  • - Silver (Antediluvian conditions - post Eden) "During this Age men refused to worship the gods " - Wikipedia.
  • - Bronze: (Antediluvian conditions - post Eden) "their arms and tools forged of bronze," "The men of this Age were undone by their own violent ways and left no named spirits; instead, they dwell in the "dank house of Hades". This Age came to an end with the flood of Deucalion."
  • - Heroic: "These humans were created from the bones of the earth (stones) through the actions of Deucalion and Pyrrha."
  • - Iron: "Hesiod finds himself in the Iron Age."
  • - See:
  • - (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_Man)






  • - Finland:
  • - "Väinämöinen attempts a heroic feat that results in a gushing wound, the blood from which covers the entire earth." – Wikipedia.
  • - “The Finnish Kalevalametric runes (oral folk poems) about Väinämöinen and his wound may be connected with flood myths. I’ll include here a variant of the poem, a translation into English and a short commentary, all from the book Finnish Folk Poetry: Epic: an Anthology in Finnish and English / edited and translated by Matti Kuusi, Keith Bosley, Michael Branch (Finnish Literature Society, 1977).


  • - Folklorist Martti Haavio has written an article on the subject, but unfortunately only in Finnish: Haavio, Martti: Naainas. In: Kalevalaseuran vuosikirja 43 (1963), pp. 53-96.



  • - Hungary/Russia:
  • - Ugrian people taught "that flood survivors used rafts but drifted to different parts of the earth." – The Watchtower January 15, 1992 on page 7.
  • - See:
  • - (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ugrians)


  • - Russia:
  • - The Mansi people (obsolete: Voguls) of Western Siberia.
  • - "After seven years of drought, the Great Woman said to the Great Man that rains had come elsewhere; how should they save themselves. The Great Man counseled the other giants to make boats from cut poplars, anchor them with ropes of willow roots 500 fathoms long, and provide them with seven days of food and with pots of melted butter to grease the ropes. Those who did not make all the preparations perished when the waters came. After seven days, the waters sank. But all plants and animals had perished, even the fish. The survivors, on the brink of starvation, prayed to the great god Numi-târom, who recreated living things." [Gaster, pp. 93-94]
  • - See:
  • - (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mansi_people)
  • - (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/flood-myths.html#Vogul)
  • - (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Num-Torum)
  • - <More to come>


  • - Russia:
  • - The Soyot people of Siberia, Russia:
  • - "A giant frog, which was supporting the earth, moved and caused the globe to be flooded. An old man and his family survived on a raft he had made. When the water receded, the raft grounded on a high mountain." – The Watchtower January 15, 1992 on page 7.
  • - See:
  • - (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soyot)
  • - <More to come>


  • - Russia:
  • - Samoyedic peoples of Northern Siberia, Russia
  • - "Seven people were saved in a boat from a flood. A terrible draught followed the flood, but the people were saved by digging a deep hole in which water formed. However, all but one young man and woman died of hunger. These two saved themselves by eating the mice which came out of the ground. The human race is descended from this couple." - [Holmberg, pp. 367-368]
  • - See:
  • - (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/flood-myths.html#Samoyed)
  • - (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samoyedic_peoples)
  • - <More to come>



  • - Russia:
  • - The Kamchadals people of Northeast Siberia, Russia:
  • - "A flood covered the whole land in the early days of the world. A few people saved themselves on rafts made from bound-together tree trunks. They carried their property and provisions and used stones tied to straps as anchors to prevent being swept out to sea. They were left stranded on mountains when the waters receded." - [Holmberg, p. 368; Gaster, p. 100]
  • - See:
  • - (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamchadals)



  • - Near/Middle East:








  • - Epic of Gilgamesh vs. the Bible's account of Noah: "Although the Bible does not specify the exact length of time Noah spent building the ark, the account allows for construction that took 50 or 60 years. Genesis 5:32; 7:6 These factors stand in stark contrast with the well-known story found in the Babylonian Epic of Gilgamesh. The (one version of the) epic describes a massive, ungainly (non sea worthy) cube (which would have repeatedly flipped over) some 200 feet [60 m] on each side that was built in only seven days. Unlike that Babylonian legend, the Bible’s Deluge account engenders confidence in its accuracy." - The Awake February 08, 1997, page 27. (brackets mine)


  • - Flavius Josephus' references:


  • - Flavius Josephus (Yosef ben Matityahu) was a Levite priest and Jewish scholar, he references the writings of the following to support his belief in the flood:


  • - 1) Berossus (Bel-Reushu) the Chalden's writing (circa 290-278 B.C.E.).



  • - Berossus is quoted by Abydenus, Apollodorus, Lucius Cornelius Alexander Polyhistor (of Miletus), Flavius Josephus (Yosef ben-Matityahu), Georgius Syncellus, Eusebius of Caesarea.





  • - Flavius Josephus (Yosef ben-Matityahu) (circa 110 C.E.), in the Book One of “Jewish Antiques” (Also known as “Anitques of the Jews”)

in Chapter 3, (Paragraph 6)




  • - 2) Hieronymus the Egyptian.
  • - See:
  • - (...)




  • - Apocalyptic Pseudepigrapha literature:





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